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Lexus GS 300/GS 430

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#1187 of 3068 by merc1 Jan 28, 2005 (5:59 am)
My point is that relative to Mercedes and BMW, Lexus' lineup has nothing to compare to MB and BMW's AMG and M series cars as far as "excitement" goes, nor do they have as many roadsters, coupes.   Nor does Lexus sell anything over 70K, which is where a lot of Mercedes' asking prices are so there is no way the sales race is going to be a level and even playing field. I'm not talking about what the actual prices are paid, I'm talking about their relative asking prices of their overall lineups, which puts Lexus at an sales advantage. Yes Mercedes sells a lot of C, E and ML level cars, but they also at least try to sell a lot of upper E, S, CL, SL cars too, of which Lexus doesn't compete pricewise. To suggest that the sales playing field is even is to ignore everything at MB and BMW from the 545i/E500 on up because Lexus only has one car and one Suv that crosses the 50K mark. If you need "figures" to understand this take glance at the model configurators at BMW, MB and Lexus.   M
#1188 of 3068 Merc by callmedrfill Jan 28, 2005 (7:25 am)
Oh, so now the barometer of luxury is north of $50k? I remember you saying 2 years ago it was $40k?      I guess in 2010 it'll be $90K.      Putting out 40 models and trims doesn't make you successful, omnipotent, or more exclusive. If nothing else, it's kind of silly, to segment a market YOU ARE TRYING TO LEAD that much. Why?      That's a good idea for a forum...oh...what?      Anywho, Lexus has EARNED a spot at the Adult's table, through unprecedented performance and excellence in sales, service, luxury, durability, and appeal.      What bothers me about your commentary is you paint Lexus as not appealing, for those who can't afford x, as if Mercedes and BMW could do more if they felt like it. This is all the same arrogance espoused by the marques themselves.      They could make their cars friendlier but, they could make their service better but, they could make the ride smoother but, they could be easier to use but, they could have fewer problems but....      Enough excuses! Show Lexus more respect! If the Germans don't, they will be the Cadillac/Lincoln/Jaguar of tomorrow.      Regarding the prices of the cars, Lexus will never sell a Lexus of comparable strength for the same as Mercedes because Lexus has built their company on value, and always will. That's their strength, building a car as good or better for $10-20k less, then force Mercedes to react. Lexus brought out a V8 with 32 valves in 1989 to fight against a S-Class Mercedes with what engine? They didn't have anything that could even think about keeping up with that!      Lexus earned respect by being better, at interiors, at ride quality, at quietness, at service. Luxury car buyers don't buy 4-door rockets, they buy great cars. Lexus builds great cars, whether you will admit that or not, makes no difference. The market has spoken.       And Lexus ain't through yet! BY 2010, they will change themselves, and the luxury car industry again. I'm very proud of what they've done, and welcome their leadership past the old, dazed, and confused competition.      Thank You.      DrFill
#1189 of 3068 You know what, I take some of that back. by callmedrfill Jan 28, 2005 (7:46 am)
Mercedes and BMW I'm sure have a great deal of respect for Lexus, in fact, they are definitely on their heels, trying to keep the market share they've got.      The basic problem is Lexus controls the US Luxury Market! The Germans are now held to Lexus' standard. They've changed everything you expect from a luxury car. And every year more disgruntled Benz owners migrate to Lexus, for good, if for nothing more than excellent quality and service they deserve.      These are things they shouldn't have to make apologies for, or rationalize away for a German badge. The badge is nice, a car well done is better.         Americans would rather have a nice car done great over a super car half-baked!      And now Lexus will start building super cars.      And for anyone naive enough to think Mercedes doesn't want to sell a higher volume of cars (like Lexus does), please ignore the haphazard December Sales Event promotions they (and every other Luxury marque) have copied (poorly) from Lexus.      What'll they think of next, washing the cars after service?      DrFill
#1190 of 3068 Hold on, folks by kirstie_h HOST Jan 28, 2005 (8:01 am)
We're not going to turn this into a Lexus vs. Merecedes (vs. whatever) discussion. We've done that before, elsewhere, largely with unpleasant results.
#1191 of 3068 I guess by oac Jan 28, 2005 (8:22 am)
to bring this debate back on topic, the new M will be a strong player against the new GS, but Infiniti needs to continue to churn out great products to remain on the map. Enthusiasts are so few and far between among the buying public that luxury cars in the $40K+ range need to play to the strenght of the market. Sporty, yes, but LUXURY first. If the new GS and M succeed in both areas, they'll succeed in the market. Who will be better ? Only time shall tell. The car is one thing, packaging and execution is clearly another.
#1192 of 3068 callmedrfill by lexusguy Jan 28, 2005 (6:50 pm)
Well said. I dont want to start another German vs. Japan war (though thats essentially what always happens, as all of us are pretty much on one side or the other. Curiously, there hasnt been a Cadillac zealot yet. I wonder why?) All I'm saying is, Mercedes is over 100 years old, and BMW and Audi are close. Lexus, Acura, and Infiniti are each 15 years old, and even their parent companies have generally only been selling cars outside of Japan in the last 40 years or so. All things considered, the progress that especially Lexus has made is nothing short of remarkable. Give Lexus another 30 years in this market, and the generation of people that actually remember legendary Mercedes like the 300SL to not be here anymore, and the Germans will probably be just more luxury players, rather than the leadership positions they enjoy as of today.
#1193 of 3068 by merc1 Jan 28, 2005 (10:33 pm)
Believe me I don't want to start another thing like that of the past either, but my point was simply that sales aren't the end all of the market and they aren't the sale factor in determining clout, prestige, coolness or whatever you want to call it. Nor is the sales playing field exactly level. The German brands prices in theory do limit their sales potential compared to the Japanese, simply put. MB and BMW are at the very least asking for more per car in their upper ranges than Lexus, and especially Infiniti or Acura (should the latter two ever enter the top 3 sales position).   callmedrfill,   Now you should know me better than that. That 40K cutover point is a GM thing that Cadillac fans used to use in order to say that Caddy was the leading seller of luxury priced cars in the U.S. They have since dropped that because they were so badly overrun by Lexus and Mercedes in the 40K plus sales bracket. The Deville is what they were basing that on anyway, hardly a modern luxury car worthy of discussion here. I never at any time tried to suggest that Lexus is selling a non-luxury item because their best sellers are below 50K. You missunderstood my point (above). Believe me I've had that arguement for years and years with the GM folk who used to claim this "luxury sales" title for Cadillac because they were excluding BMW's, Lexus', and Mercedes' sub 40K cars. I have never subscribed to the theory that only cars of this XX,XXX price are true luxury cars because it is way to messy to try and decide which are true luxury because everyone has different or at least varying criteria for what a true luxury car or product is.   M
#1194 of 3068 by lexusguy Jan 29, 2005 (1:36 am)
Also, I expect Lexus to move further upmarket as Acura and Infiniti continue to push past their mid 30s market into the 50s. The LF-A will be the start, followed by the LS LWB model.
#1195 of 3068 Merc by callmedrfill Jan 29, 2005 (5:48 am)
I thank you for a moment of clarity and contrition.      It's obvious Lexus wanted to extablish a base for their marque as far as dealership proliferation, sales and marketing strategy, dealer networks, service, and a strong customer base, with excellent word of mouth. Now they can do whatever they want, and have a long lease to play with. It wasn't a matter of if they were going upmarket, just when.      I guess after 15 years, time is due.      All there recent concepts have been very attractive, hopefully a product onslaught awaits us, as indicated by Mr. Cho over New Year's.           DrFill
#1196 of 3068 Haven't we been through this before? by maxhonda99 Jan 29, 2005 (6:29 am)
"The German brands prices in theory do limit their sales potential compared to the Japanese, simply put. MB and BMW are at the very least asking for more per car in their upper ranges than Lexus, and especially Infiniti or Acura (should the latter two ever enter the top 3 sales position)."   True, Mercedes has higher priced cars. But how does that limit their sales? Mercedes, for example, also has more models. Overall they have over 20 models and probably more than 3x the number of models Lexus does. This alone should translate to more sales(more models reach more prospective customers). Also, each Lexus model has a similarly priced Mercedes model which are direct competitors. For example, the RX330 vs. ML350. The ES330 vs. C320. The Lexus LS430 vs. S430, the E320/430 vs. GS300/430. I don't see how these models are limiting Benz's sales. Does anyone else? The ES330, RX330, & LS430 aren't limiting Lexus sales yet their direct competitors the C320, ML350, S430 are limiting sales? Ultimately sales figures mean very little, but fact is, with the number of models & variations Mercedes has in the US, they should be crushing Lexus because Mercedes competes head on with every product Lexus has yet Mercedes has additional products which Lexus has no competition for.

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