Last post on Oct 30, 2011 at 4:14 AM
You are in the Kia Rondo
What is this discussion about?
Kia Rondo, Wagon
#298 of 409 Re: sharing a thought. [conwelpic]
Apr 01, 2008 (11:19 am)
Thanks for the Picture, I didn't realize it was different between the 5 and 7 seater, I guess the salesman didn't either. We're interested in the 5 seater. I found the 2.4L to be pretty good on the highway, and since the majority of our driving is in the city I really do not think the 6cyl is needed, but I'm used to driving an SUV with a 6cyl and that thing could haul just about anything, just load it up and off you go, unfortunately so did your fuel.
Well the more I hear the more I think we are Rondo bound. If anyone has anything to add I am willing to hear... To all those who have replied thus far, Thanks : )
Thanks for the info.
#300 of 409 Re: Any Previous Kia Owners out there? [wheelspin1]
Apr 02, 2008 (1:29 am)
Vehicle has no adjustments for camber or caster. And drive shaft design leads to torque steer. Both of these problems were taken care of, in Ford and GM at least, by time of earlier 90's. To fix the torque steer problem, either the transmission housing has to be redesigned or a shaft extender becomes part of the transmission so that both drive shafts are equal in length. I'm not sure why this works but I found Ford engineering note to this. This is not something after build.
The vehicle has some pluses, but power is not one or mileage either. And for the previously mentioned, I would stay away until KIA fixes it.
#301 of 409 Re: Any Previous Kia Owners out there? [e_net_rider]
Apr 02, 2008 (4:57 am)
e_net_rider, you're right about the Rondo having no adjustments for camber or caster. If the Rondo comes out of the factory not aligned to spec and it's noticeable during real-world driving, it's a problem that (at this point) cannot be easily fixed. As stated before, anecdotal evidence seems to suggest that a few V6s have been particularly unlucky (the potential "pulling to the right" problem). I've noticed in another thread that you've had what appears to be an alignment problem with your I4--it's the only account I've read so far of such a problem with the I4 (I did read an account of pulling to the right in the I4, but only when accelerating from a stop with the traction control kicking in). So is the likelihood of encountering such a problem high enough for a potential buyer to be worried? Can this be screened for during a test drive? I don't know. I just know that I haven't noticed any obvious problems related to the alignment in my own I4 Rondo.
I have yet to read a review from the press or an automotive website, or an anecdote in this forum or at Kia Forums, complaining about noticeable torque steering in the Rondo.
Most of the reviews and anecdotes that I've read state that the Rondo's power is just fine (especially the V6), but there haven't been many accounts of how it performs with a full load of people/cargo. Last summer, I did have seven passengers on a few occasions (mostly kids, though). On those occasions, I drove in the city only and I didn't notice any obvious deficiency in the power of my I4.
As for the mileage, people can just re-read point #1 in my previous post.
#302 of 409 Re: torque steer
Apr 02, 2008 (5:15 am)
Many years ago, with European front-wheel-drive cars, there were problems with "torque steer". The early Olds Tornado had it too. Some inovative solutions included a larger diameter long shaft, and higher modulus material in the longer shaft. Renault had a really weird solution in the '70s R-16 by making the wheelbase on the right side almost 4" shorter than on the left side! (Moved the rear wheel forward.)
Mostly this is a problem upon rapid acceleration. I drove FWD cars in the '60s and '70s (raced a Fiat 128) and learned to expect it and live with it in cars that had not engineered it out. (In some racing applications, one used to be able to buy different material "stiffness" shafts to compensate for the torque.) One would think Kia could actually lick this with the ESC program. Probably the reason the V-6 cars have a more pronounced "pull" is the increased torque of the V-6 with the same suspension/steering components.
Possibly the ESC program is exactly the problem. I don't have a V-6 so I have to ask, does it pull the same with the ESC switched "off"? Maybe by trying to keep the wheel with the short shaft from spinning, it accidentally steers the car that way?
As to the point about no caster or camber adjustments: Maybe they don't view normal wear without physical damage as a problem? There is in fact a way to make some adjustment in the strut rotation in the mounts and maybe that's how they expect to correct alignment?
We may be facing the day that the "old" system of doing these things is gone in favor of simpler and less costly assembly, and reduction of part quantities. Trust me on this, design engineers in all products but anvils and bowling balls are under tremendous pressure to reduce the number of parts in assemblies.
I personally don't need a lot of power in my family mini van. I get lots of power kicks from a couple of other vehicles I own. As I said in one other post, the '05 Sedona we owned had WAY too much power for safe use by most drivers. ESC is there to keep untrained and inexperienced drivers, and lazy old goats like me, from getting into trouble when applying too much power at the wrong time.
Our mileage is excellent so far - way above the EPA numbers, and in a different universe from the Sedona! Driving style can make a lot of difference, and maybe drivers who make rapid acceleration a priority to the point of torque steer also push the inertia law some and find that heavy vehicles under high acceleration forces use more gas?
#303 of 409 No Camber/Caster = No Alignment?
Apr 02, 2008 (6:32 am)
I appreciate what seem like very informed posts on engineering issues, which I am otherwise quite ignorant of.
So help me out - how does a front-end alignment happen (which I just paid a local shop to do after I hit a mega-pothole) if there is no camber/caster adjustment?
btw - after the "alignment' job, I'm now getting shimmy when braking at highway speed. any insights appreciated....
#304 of 409 Re: No Camber/Caster = No Alignment? [rondonium]
Apr 03, 2008 (7:46 am)
Tough break with the pothole. Zillion of 'em around Louisville this year too.
I make it a point when getting repairs done, to get a complete list of what will be done for what cost. Essential that it is itemized. This is particualrly important for me for "collision" repairs and a pot-hole fits that for me.
Did the car shimmy on braking BEFORE the repairs? As a result of the pot-hole I mean. Also, what led to the diagnosis "out of alignment"? Is this a Kia shop, or somewhere else?
There are some items that could be bent in a pot-hole strike besides just knocking aligment adjustments loose. The Rondo has lower control arms and they are apparently of a two-piece design. Doesn't look weak to me at all, but sure could be bent or twisted. (I once severely bent a lower A-arm on a Ford F-250 truck when I ran over a chunk of concrete in the road in the dark of night. Had to replace a LOT of stuff on that one!) The lower control arm bushings could also be damaged. There is a steering "knuckle" at the axle end to allow steering, and it is pretty much a "cv" joint and could be broken or loosened. Wouldn't be much of a stretch for the axle shaft on that side to be bent, and of course the strut itself coud be bent or the upper mount shifted in the "tower". Could be a brake rotor damaged. The tie rod end or whole tie rod could be damaged and even the steering rack could be damaged.
Could have been LOTS of damage other than just being "out of line". In fact, even rear wheels can be knoced out of line fairly easily on FWD cars. Rim damage? Tire belt damage?
If there was no shimmy on braking after the hit and before the "alignment", I'd be skeptical about the alignment of course. Sometimes, adjusting the tie-rod "toe in" incorrectly will result in pulling to one side especially while braking, pulling to either side unpredictably on braking, severe shake or shimmy, or all of the above. Toe in can measure correctly, and still be quite off center. Is your steering wheel still "centered"? Was it after the hit?
There does appear to be, as in the Sedona, some adjustment that can be made with the upper strut mount - some rotation that can effect alignment. There is some TSB on that for Sedonas that come from the factory "misaligned". This sonds like it's not an easy repair process, sort of "last ditch".
I'd advise talking to that reapir shop about an itemized bill for just what they did and how. Ask how far out of line and in what way the diagnosis said it was. Tell them you still have a problem and make them fix it right. If you still have doubts, try another repair shop - someone who will itemize the problem and billing, and explain to them what has gone down so far so they know what to look for.
One other point that is important any time you have a sudden problem of some damage that has to be repaired: Never tell a shop what you think or know is wrong, or what you want repaired. This is a license for them to fix what you wanted fixed, billing you for it legally, and never fixing the real problem.
Tell them the complete problem with background of how it got to that, and ask then to inspect, estimate, and itemize. Get two or more estimates if you can.
Please get back to us on whatever you find out so we'll all know for next time. This is a great forum for sharing knowledge.
#305 of 409 Re: sharing a thought. [medicineman]
Apr 03, 2008 (8:14 am)
Medicineman makes some good statements-
"Some people are not happy with the mileage, but as far as I can see, most people have been meeting the American EPA estimates for the 2008 I4--19 MPG city and 26 MPG highway in US gallons (or 22.8 MPG city and 31.2 MPG highway in Imperial gallons)."
My fuel economy with my 2007 EX V6 Luxury is 23-24 mpg city (well, more like rural as opposed to city) and 33 mpg highway, Imperial, so it is pretty close to spot on what he says, except it's with the V6, 2 adults, 2 kids, and a load of stuff. Maybe the 5 sp auto makes a difference, as opposed to the 4 sp with the 4 cyl?
"I think some Canadians have been disappointed because they've been looking at the overly optimistic Canadian EnerGuide estimates, which are 26 MPG city and 38 MPG highway in Imperial gallons (or 21.6 MPG city and 31.6 MPG highway in US gallons). The only way you'll get 38 MPG Imperial on the highway is if you're going downhill all the way with hurricane-force winds blowing behind you."
Yeah, the EnerGuide is a farce - there is no way any vehicle is going to meet their estimates without a big push downhill! I am pretty happy with 33 mph highway Imperial, which is 1 mpg better than my 1998 Legacy wagon 5 sp was getting.
"A few people and two reviews that I've read have complained about the stock all-season tires (especially the Michelins) and their lack of grip on ice and snow. They've also complained about the too intrusive Traction Control System, which cuts the power to reduce wheel spin and which may lead to some scary results (such as leaving you "powerless" in the middle of an intersection or while trying to merge into traffic). For those who've noticed this problem, it can be solved by installing some decent winter tires."
Exactly! Anyone who drives in Canada (maybe other than in BC) should be installing winter tires every winter, without exception. I use studded winter tires, since around here (central Newfoundland) we get a lot of ice. No all-season tire should be used in below-freezing temperatures, and anyone who complains that their all-seasons lack grip, need to get a grip! OF COURSE they lack grip! Jeez! The Traction Control System intervenes occasionally with my studded tires, so I can imagine how much it intervenes with the no-season, sorry I mean all-season tires.
"A few people have noticed that the V6 pulls to the right. This isn't a potential problem for you since it doesn't seem to affect the I4, but I thought I would mention it for other people's sake."
I have not experienced any pull to the right or left with my V6 - it is always dead centre and extremely stable.
"In Canada (can't remember if this is also true for the US), the 2007 Rondo has a
light in the cargo area and inside the glovebox. These lights have been removed in the 2008 model. There are other differences, too, but these two seem to be the most annoying."
Yeah, the 2007 Canadian model has a light in the cargo area and glove box, which are very useful.
#306 of 409 Re: torque steer [vanner]
Apr 03, 2008 (9:24 am)
ESC sounds like a joke if it only kills power during slippage. I certainly hope there are other inputs to the system.
Torque steer is actually menacing in combination with alignment/handling problem. There is too much caster which makes the vehicle harder to steer when pulling than when you let off the gas. With too much caster the vehicle also wants to follow any wear or anomaly in the road. Adding in the other bad cambor figures it is aligned for going on a round track. Not the way I drive for sure.
Adding the bad alignment to the torque steer issue makes its handling very unpredictable at any given moment. It is hard to perceive how the vehicle will react to any road surface change and multiply that by the infinite possible conditions to amount of torque delivered from engine is doubly insane. Problem is so bad on torque steer that the difference is notable on a slight incline, up and down hill.
As to rotating strut rod, some of the early solutions were just that and Ford suggestted bending them, for which they got their asses sued off. I certainly don't want my struts bent. Nor do I want them to butcher slots into them.
As to elimination of parts, GM and Ford learned the hard way that eliminating too much is bad.
BTW, I realized the issue at 900 miles, the first time I drove the vehicle. It now has almost 9000 and is starting to develop some play in linkage, likely because of the constant self induced motion via alignment and torque steer. How many times can you intentionally steer a small amount left and right around the center point before such wear shows up? And roads here in the south are much better than most places in the north. Road never breaks due to frost, so potholes are near absent.
#307 of 409 Re: torque steer [e_net_rider]
Apr 03, 2008 (5:45 pm)
e_net_rider, have you read the thread over at Kia Forums about the pulling problem in the V6? An interesting discussion has developed in that thread--start at post #100 and continue onward. You might find it helpful, or maybe not, but it doesn't hurt to take a peek. Perhaps you might even want to ask a few questions of your own.